The planning application for the new pool can now be found on the Lewisham Council Website.
Showing posts with label swimming pool. Show all posts
Showing posts with label swimming pool. Show all posts
12 May 2010
16 March 2010
Pool Designs Released to Public
While the Stakeholder's group (of which we are part) have been allowed to see the designs of the pool complex as they progressed, it is only now that the general public have been allowed to see the designs.
The new complex will comprise
- 6 lane 25m pool
- 16.7m x 7m learner pool, with limited spectating
- Mixed changing village and group changing facilities
- 278m2 Gym with approximately 70 stations
- Two studios for aerobics or meetings
- Community Room
- Cafe with terrace and internal view to the main pool
Outside, there will be a coach drop off, motor cycle and bike parking as well as disabled parking for one vehicle.
You can download a copy of the display from Lewisham's website at http://www.lewisham.gov.uk/foresthillpools or our website
Don't forget to have your say in person at the following times:
| Wednesday, 17 March | Forest Hill Station 4.30 pm - 6.30 pm |
| Thursday, 18 March | Forest Hill Library 9 am -8 pm |
| Friday, 19 March | Sainsbury's (London Rd) 5 pm -7 pm |
| Wednesday, 24 March | Forest Hill Station 4.30 pm - 6.30 pm |
| Thursday, 25 March | Forest Hill Library 9 am -8 pm |
| Friday, 26 March | Sainsbury's (London Rd) 5 pm -7 pm |
We will then have the chance to meet the architects to provide feedback and discuss any concerns on Saturday, 27 March at Forest Hill Station from 10 am -3 pm
09 March 2010
Forest Hill Pools — Latest Design Details
As we reported in January, the architects Roberts Limbrick have been selected as the preferred architects to deliver the detailed design for our swimming pools on Dartmouth Road. This Gloucester-based practice has built Leisure Centres and swimming pools before and is familiar with the engineering and design problems. They presented their thoughts and plans to the stakeholders group and to the Forest Hill Ward Assembly on 1st February.
If you cast your mind way back, you may remember a point when the Council presented us with three design proposals by different architects. The most popular (although we were told at the time it was far too expensive) was from architects Allies and Morrison which proposed a rectangular building with a wave shaped roof. Roberts Limbrick are working with this vision.
They suggest orientating the two pools in the same direction as the current pools but with the changing area in between. This would enable both pools to be lit by natural light from windows along the walls. The teaching pool would be more enclosed with a flexible exercise room above. A gym situated above the changing rooms would get natural light from over the larger pool which would be double height.
There would be two entrances, the current one on Dartmouth Road and another on the side by Kingswear House next to a new cafe. This would lead to a public area or mall behind the cafe and the superintendant’s house. There would be disabled access and coach drop-off in front of the Dartmouth Road entrance. There would also be some disabled parking but no other onsite parking as the site is too small.
The stakeholders and those attending the assembly had a number of questions about the parking, service, safeguarding pedestrians, the material to be used, and environmental issues: some of the roof may be green (sedum or grass), the pools would be covered when not in use to conserve heat, sustainable energy sources have been discussed.
From a visual point of view, the greatest problem is likely to be the relocation of some of the plant to the front of the building over the cafe. The architects will have to work hard to ensure this is not ugly and intrusive next to the Victorian building.
On the positive side, the firm does seem willing to engage with stakeholders and the public and now is the time to make your views heard before planning permission is sought later this year. Do you have a burning issue you would like us to raise? Do you want to be able to watch your kids while they are having lessons? Do you want Unisex changing, or a changing village? Whatever it is, please contact us via the Forest Hill Society.
05 March 2010
Forest Hill Pools Consultation
Lewisham Council have just announced the following dates for a consultation on the design of the new pools.
You will be able to see the plans online or in person at the following times:
| Wednesday, 17 March | Forest Hill Station 4.30 pm - 6.30 pm |
| Thursday, 18 March | Forest Hill Library 9 am -8 pm |
| Friday, 19 March | Sainsbury's (London Rd) 5 pm -7 pm |
| Wednesday, 24 March | Forest Hill Station 4.30 pm - 6.30 pm |
| Thursday, 25 March | Forest Hill Library 9 am -8 pm |
| Friday, 26 March | Sainsbury's (London Rd) 5 pm -7 pm |
We will then have the chance to meet the architects to provide feedback and discuss any concerns on Saturday, 27 March at Forest Hill Station from 10 am -3 pm
05 February 2010
February eNewsletter
It’s quite a lengthy eNewsletter this month but we wanted to let you know the latest about Forest Hill Pools and the good news about toilet facilities in the Horniman Triangle. Details of this month’s 23 Club are still to be finalised but I’ll get them to you very soon. We also have a combined spring social event with the Sydenham Society – a visit to Brogdale Farm, the home of the National Fruit Collection. So please take a deep breath and struggle through to the end…
POOLS
We now have more details about the architects’ plans for our pools on Dartmouth Road. Roberts Limbrick, the Gloucester-based practice appointed by Lewisham Council, presented their thoughts and plans so far to the stakeholders group and to the Forest Hill Ward Assembly on 1st February.
The architects propose orienting the two pools in the same direction as the current pools but with the changing area in between. This would enable both pools to be lit by natural light from windows along the walls. The teaching pool would be more enclosed with a flexible exercise room above. A gym situated above the changing rooms would get natural light over the larger pool, which would be double height.
There would be two entrances, the current one on Dartmouth Road and another on the side by Kingswear House by a new cafe. This would lead to a public area or mall behind the cafe and the superintendant’s house. There would be disabled access and coach drop off in front to the Dartmouth Road entrance. There would be some disabled parking, but no other onsite parking as the site is too small.
The stakeholders and those attending the assembly had a number of questions around the parking, service access (down a side road between the Pools and Louise House), safeguarding pedestrians, the material to be used, and green issues: some of the roof may be green (sedum or grass), the pools would be covered when not in use to conserve heat, sustainable energy sources have been discussed.
Roberts Limbrick does seem willing to engage with stakeholders and the public so now is the time to make your views heard before planning permission is sought later this year. Do you have a burning issue you would like us to raise? Do you need provision for underwater hockey, for example? Do you want to be able to watch your kids while they are having lessons? Do you want separate male and female changing areas or a changing village?
Whatever it is, please contact us via the Forest Hill Society.
TOILET FACILITIES IN THE HORNIMAN TRIANGLE
This was an issue which concerned a great many of us when Forest Hill Beach (the fancy sand pit opposite the Horniman Museum) opened last Easter. There were no toilet facilities and this caused considerable problems for young children who couldn’t be expected to make it all the way to the Museum’s toilets which the time came. So, the excellent news is that there will be new toilets next to the café in the Horniman Triangle in mid-Summer.
This has become possible because the Forest Hill Ward Assembly agreed to spend £3850 on the architects' designs. The designs were discussed at the last Ward Assembly on Monday 1st February and, after listening to advice from Martin Hyde of the Council’s parks department, the local residents attending the assembly chose the option which would attach the toilets to the existing café building.
The current plan is for there to be two small toilets and a larger disabled cubicle which would include baby changing facilities. There will be a RADAR key available from the café for those who don’t have one and want to use the baby changing facilities.
The council is including the full £80,000 for the cost of building the new facilities in the new parks contract and the architects are expecting to complete their work and send it for planning permission in April. Martin is hoping that building can be finished for mid-summer.
We’re grateful to the local residents and councillors who petitioned and campaigned for these facilities and hope they will make everyone’s life easier when they’re down at the beach.
PERRY VALE WARD ASSEMBLY
Thursday 11th February, 7.40-9.30: Forest Hill Methodist Church, Normanton Street
NATURE’S GYM AT ALBION MILLENIUM GREEN
February 25th 11.00-2.00 Nature’s Gym will continue to prepare the ground and, weather permitting, a collection of damson trees and a mulberry tree will be planted on the north side of the Green. Interested in helping? Bring gardening gloves, branch loppers or secateurs.
BROGDALE IN BLOSSOM
Saturday, April 17th combined FHSoc/SydSoc visit to Brogdale Farm in Faversham, Kent - the home of the National Fruit Collection. The aim is to arrive at Brogdale by 11.00a.m. and have a cup of coffee; do the guided tour of the collection of blossoming fruit trees (approx 1 hour); lunch in the Brogdale cafe and either browse the rest of the site at leisure or linger in the gift shop. You can read about the farm at www.brogdalecollections.co.uk
We’re going in individual cars rather than a coach but the idea is that drivers with spare capacity offer lifts to other members. Contact should be made with chair@foresthillsociety.com to let us know how many to expect.
POOLS
We now have more details about the architects’ plans for our pools on Dartmouth Road. Roberts Limbrick, the Gloucester-based practice appointed by Lewisham Council, presented their thoughts and plans so far to the stakeholders group and to the Forest Hill Ward Assembly on 1st February.
The architects propose orienting the two pools in the same direction as the current pools but with the changing area in between. This would enable both pools to be lit by natural light from windows along the walls. The teaching pool would be more enclosed with a flexible exercise room above. A gym situated above the changing rooms would get natural light over the larger pool, which would be double height.
There would be two entrances, the current one on Dartmouth Road and another on the side by Kingswear House by a new cafe. This would lead to a public area or mall behind the cafe and the superintendant’s house. There would be disabled access and coach drop off in front to the Dartmouth Road entrance. There would be some disabled parking, but no other onsite parking as the site is too small.
The stakeholders and those attending the assembly had a number of questions around the parking, service access (down a side road between the Pools and Louise House), safeguarding pedestrians, the material to be used, and green issues: some of the roof may be green (sedum or grass), the pools would be covered when not in use to conserve heat, sustainable energy sources have been discussed.
Roberts Limbrick does seem willing to engage with stakeholders and the public so now is the time to make your views heard before planning permission is sought later this year. Do you have a burning issue you would like us to raise? Do you need provision for underwater hockey, for example? Do you want to be able to watch your kids while they are having lessons? Do you want separate male and female changing areas or a changing village?
Whatever it is, please contact us via the Forest Hill Society.
TOILET FACILITIES IN THE HORNIMAN TRIANGLE
This was an issue which concerned a great many of us when Forest Hill Beach (the fancy sand pit opposite the Horniman Museum) opened last Easter. There were no toilet facilities and this caused considerable problems for young children who couldn’t be expected to make it all the way to the Museum’s toilets which the time came. So, the excellent news is that there will be new toilets next to the café in the Horniman Triangle in mid-Summer.
This has become possible because the Forest Hill Ward Assembly agreed to spend £3850 on the architects' designs. The designs were discussed at the last Ward Assembly on Monday 1st February and, after listening to advice from Martin Hyde of the Council’s parks department, the local residents attending the assembly chose the option which would attach the toilets to the existing café building.
The current plan is for there to be two small toilets and a larger disabled cubicle which would include baby changing facilities. There will be a RADAR key available from the café for those who don’t have one and want to use the baby changing facilities.
The council is including the full £80,000 for the cost of building the new facilities in the new parks contract and the architects are expecting to complete their work and send it for planning permission in April. Martin is hoping that building can be finished for mid-summer.
We’re grateful to the local residents and councillors who petitioned and campaigned for these facilities and hope they will make everyone’s life easier when they’re down at the beach.
PERRY VALE WARD ASSEMBLY
Thursday 11th February, 7.40-9.30: Forest Hill Methodist Church, Normanton Street
NATURE’S GYM AT ALBION MILLENIUM GREEN
February 25th 11.00-2.00 Nature’s Gym will continue to prepare the ground and, weather permitting, a collection of damson trees and a mulberry tree will be planted on the north side of the Green. Interested in helping? Bring gardening gloves, branch loppers or secateurs.
BROGDALE IN BLOSSOM
Saturday, April 17th combined FHSoc/SydSoc visit to Brogdale Farm in Faversham, Kent - the home of the National Fruit Collection. The aim is to arrive at Brogdale by 11.00a.m. and have a cup of coffee; do the guided tour of the collection of blossoming fruit trees (approx 1 hour); lunch in the Brogdale cafe and either browse the rest of the site at leisure or linger in the gift shop. You can read about the farm at www.brogdalecollections.co.uk
We’re going in individual cars rather than a coach but the idea is that drivers with spare capacity offer lifts to other members. Contact should be made with chair@foresthillsociety.com to let us know how many to expect.
16 December 2009
Forest Hill Pools - The Way Ahead
We now know that the architects who will design our new Forest Hill Pools development are Roberts Limbrick Ltd. They seem to be fans of Thomas Aldwinkle’s legacy of Victorian civic buildings (he designed Forest Hill pools, Louise House and the library.) Roberts Limbrick are currently working on the refurbishment of another of his pools, Kentish Town Baths.
They have also designed and built a number of other modern swimming pools for Local Authorities in and around London including the Mile End Leisure Centre. When we got in touch to congratulate them on being selected for this project they wrote back to say they were “delighted, and indeed excited, over our selection for this prestigious and important project in Forest Hill.” More information about them can be found at www.robertslimbrick.co.uk.
The rest of the design team is WYG who’ll be the Structural Engineers and Building Services Partnership Ltd who’ll be the building services engineers. The Council’s programme for delivering the pools envisages that the design team now spends the next few months working up the final designs prior to the submission of a detailed planning application in April of next year. Construction would then start in June 2011 and the pools would open in December 2012. We are keen to ensure that the detailed proposals are consulted on as they are developed.
There are though a number of key issues we’d like to be resolved during this process. How will the Pools frontage work with Louise House and the Library? Is it possible to use this area to provide a coordinated entrance to and between each of the buildings, ideally one that doesn't require disabled users of the library to use the back of the building? Will the internal arrangement of the building work for the widest range of people? How will the building impact on its closest neighbours? We are hoping that the next stakeholder meeting will be used to focus on these issues and to start to refine a scheme that will really benefit Forest Hill Town Centre and become a well used destination for residents.
Louise House
There has also been recent progress on potential future uses for Louise House. Early in November, the Friends of Louise House submitted three different proposals:
• A serviced office scheme with a community
nursery;
• an arts centre; and
• the ownership of the building by the National Trust
15 July 2009
VICTORY FOR FOREST HILL POOLS
We are pleased to report that Mayor Steve Bullock has taken the decision to put the extra money into swimming in Forest Hill. We are now on track to have swimming on the Dartmouth Road site before the 2012 Olympics. The frontage will be retained with a great two pool leisure centre behind.
The Mayor admitted at the meeting that there could have been significant planning problems in building a new leisure centre on Willow Way, a fact that was never mentioned during the consultation. He felt that the additional cost of a pool on the existing site was worth the expenditure compared with the risk of a development on Willow Way being delayed by planning problems. It was also mentioned that if funds were not committed now, a new leisure centre might never be built – public expenditure cuts in the future were a near certainty.
The design is expected to be based on that drawn up by Allies and Morrison and first shown to stakeholders in February this year. A copy of the relevant pictures from the stakeholder presentation is attached. This design really impressed the stakeholders when it was first revealed and it was a major disappointment when it was then revealed that it was unaffordable.
Whilst making the decision, the Mayor agreed to extend the time that the Council would wait for funded proposals from the community for a civic use for Louise House beyond the previous date of November 2009. He also instructed Council Officers to provide some assistance in preparing such proposals. With the Library and Pools site in Civic use, it would be a real shame for Louise House, the building in between, to be converted into housing which has been the Council’s intention. A major effort to develop proposals for Louise House is expected to be the next focus for local community groups now the Pools battle has been won.
The Mayor also said that he had been impressed by the Forest Hill Society proposals that live / work units should be built on the Willow Way site and he instructed the Council’s planners to consider such a use for the site along with any other proposals that might come forward. Any revenues from such a development would offset the additional cost of the new pools on Dartmouth Road. At the moment, the Council is effectively putting a value of zero on the Willow Way site but the Forest Hill Society’s advisors feel that a value of £1.5m is realistic.
This is the best possible result for Forest Hill town centre and for the people of Forest Hill.
This has been a hard fought campaign by the Forest Hill Society and other local groups including Keep Swimming in Forest Hill, Sydenham Society, Tewkesbury Lodge Estate Residents Association, and local councillors.
Particular thanks to Hilary, Penelope, Jeff, Quetta, and Michael from the Forest Hill Society committee who have put a huge amount of effort to getting this result. Without their hard work and dedication it is likely the outcome could have been very different.
07 July 2009
Forest Hill Pools - The Third Option
Over the last few years the Forest Hill Society has consistently campaigned for a return for swimming on the site of Forest Hill pools at the earliest possible opportunity.
In May 2009 local residents were given two options to either move swimming into Willow Way, or wait for at least six years to see swimming return to the current site. The Forest Hill Society continued to support the Dartmouth Road site as the best option, whilst recognising that an early return of swimming for vital for the health of Forest Hill residents and Forest Hill town centre.
The report to Mayor and Cabinet now contains a third option which would provide exactly what we ask for; a pool on Dartmouth Road in the timescale of the Willow Way site. We strongly support this option and call on the mayor to support this option when he makes his decision on the 15th July 2009.
We believe that this option would not have been considered without the work of the Forest Hill Society working with other local groups, councillors, council officers, and the mayor. It may be premature, but we would like to thank all those who have worked to return swimming to Forest Hill.
29 June 2009
Forest Hill Society Response to the Pools Consultation
You can read the Forest Hill Society response to the May 2009 pools consultation by following this link.
CONCLUSIONS
5.1 We fully support the Council in a decision to return swimming and public leisure facilities to Forest Hill in the near future.
5.2 We continue to believe that the Dartmouth Road site is the most deliverable and appropriate site for this facility.
5.3 We believe that the recent Consultation supports the need for swimming in Forest Hill and that most people who would make use of the facility believe that this should be located on the existing Dartmouth Road site.
5.4 We would like to see a robust reconsideration of the delivery programme and budget requirements of this project, including consideration of any phasing potential of the development in order to provide a facility that the people of Forest Hill can make use of at the earliest opportunity.
5.5 We would welcome the opportunity to work with the Council to demonstrate the potential for live/work development on the Willow Way site.
23 June 2009
Pools Consultation Results
The results of the consultation were presented to the Stakeholders group yesterday evening. You can view the results on the Lewisham Council web site.
Although total numbers are not given we understand that the result is just over 51% in favour of the Willow Way pool in Sydenham (slide 14), although the margin of error makes this a statistical draw and it is difficult to weigh up the differences between schools who may or may not use the pool and individuals who may or may not use the pool.
Of key importance to people in favour of both options is an accessible location (slides 15 and 16). A key consideration for those who voted for Willow Way was that they want to see a pool in the area as soon as possible, and the consultation told them that Willow Way could be delivered faster than the Dartmouth Road pools site.
One clear message (slide 18) is that in all groups people are more likely to visit the site if it were built in Dartmouth Road and the groups who are most likely to go swimming are also those who most preferred the Dartmouth Road site.
Online respondents were the most Forest Hill based group (slide 10), and out of this group a massive 66% favoured the existing site, and an enormous 93% would swim there, compared to only 38% if it were in Willow Way. Taking this into account we believe that the Forest Hill Society has accurately reflected the views of local people and will continue to push for the pool to be built in the Forest Hill town centre, not in an industrial estate in Sydenham.
Please feel free to add your own comments below.
23 May 2009
Planning for a Pool on Dartmouth Road
Below is the content of the proposal from the Forest Hill Society to Sir Steve Bullock regarding bringing swimming back to Forest Hill as soon as possible.
A sketch of the proposals for the site can be viewed here.
Dear Sir Steve,
We have given careful consideration to the various options that are around about the use of the existing pools site and the alternative site at Willow Way. We are concerned that the potential of achieving planning permission is not being realistically stated and that alternative options for funding a pool, on the pools site, are being ignored.
Firstly we are concerned that the potential of achieving a pool on the Willow Way site is being overstated generally and particularly in the current consultation. A pool on this site is strictly speaking contrary to the UDP and a leisure use does not meet many of the criteria set out as mitigating reasons why non-employment uses would be considered. Pushing ahead this option could be problematic for the council. Legal guidance has already stated that residential would not be allowed on the Willow Way site and such an option has been removed from the consultation, however, it remains questionable whether a swimming pool would be suitable for the location.
As well as resulting in a loss of employment, moving the swimming pool from the Dartmouth Road site would also be contrary to regional policy intended to retain leisure uses in town centre locations. This location is not recognised as meeting most of the criteria for the location of a swimming pool – specifically it is outside a designated town centre and is not correctly located to provide the maximum level of access to swimming within a 20 minute walk from their homes. The location is within a 20 minute walk from the Crystal Palace pool, which means that half the catchment area is already served by another pool. This calls into question the long-term viability of this site for leisure use.
There is a similar planning problem when considering the loss of a pool and park from Dartmouth Road for conversion to residential. This will have a detrimental effect on the town centre and specifically on the library, which will no longer be adjacent to a leisure destination. This will again require a major change of use of the land, and with the density of housing proposed, close to existing housing and two grade 2 listed buildings, is likely to meet resistance from local residents.
We understand the financial problems that you have in providing the pool on the existing Dartmouth Road site but the Forest Hill Society have been working on a proposal for Live/Work development to cross-subsidise the pool on the existing pool site. The would comprise approximately 50% live/work units providing 25-30 jobs, and just under 50% residential units above the live/work units. We believe that this option will maximise the employment available on the site (greater than for the likely use of the site for pure employment as either B8, B1, or B2, or for the pool). However, we recognise that this does not fit with the 100% employment use that is outlined in the UDP and in the draft core strategy options produced in 2009, although it does achieve the objectives for flexible, creative employment accommodation.
The use of Willow Way as a mixed site for employment and residential is actually a very good use of this site that assists with the regeneration of the area, maximising employment (and possibly a small amount of residential use), whilst maintaining additional employment in leisure services at the existing pools site. It has to be done in the right way to create a viable live/work community, but the residential element will positively assist in this desire. We recommend that the council consider the Wilow Way site as a suitable site for mixed use development, allowing such a development in the south of the borough as well as a number proposed for the north of the borough. This is the best use for this site independent to any consideration of the pools location.
There should not be any significant problem in designating Willow Way as a mixed development in the Core Strategy and Spatial Strategy that are being produced and this would allow for the building of live/work units plus residential on Willow Way in the same timeframe as the alternative idea for housing on the existing pools site. The council should then be able to move forward with plans for the development of the new pool on the Dartmouth Road site, knowing that approximately £2m can be realised from the sale of the Willow Way site (our conservative estimates show a minimum of £1.5m land value based on 2009 property values).
Unfortunately Willow Way cannot completely cross-subsidise the estimated cost of the pool if it does cost £12.5m, with a shortfall of £5m from the funds the council have earmarked for the Forest Hill pool. We believe that most of the remaining £3m shortfall can be addressed by the reduced cost of building over that last two years, and by careful consideration to reduce costs on the site.
The current plan for option 2 is to push ahead with building a pool on the Willow Way site prior to approval for building housing on the existing site. We believe that if this can be done for option 2, a similar process can be put in place for option 1, allowing for the building of the new pool on the existing site to commence in the same time frame.
This option, of pools on the current site and mixed use on Willow Way should result in less risk to the project as a whole, by a minor and justifiable change to the designation of Willow Way, rather than significant changes to the designation of both sites of proposed development. This will provide for swimming facilities at the earliest possible opportunity in a site favoured by residents, planning and leisure guidelines, and by council officers to whom we have spoken.
We believe that an Outline Planning Application on this site may be a good way of testing and determining the future of the Willow Way Site and would be happy to help you wherever we can in the preparation of such an application.
I look forward to your response on this proposition.
A sketch of the proposals for the site can be viewed here.
Dear Sir Steve,
We have given careful consideration to the various options that are around about the use of the existing pools site and the alternative site at Willow Way. We are concerned that the potential of achieving planning permission is not being realistically stated and that alternative options for funding a pool, on the pools site, are being ignored.
Firstly we are concerned that the potential of achieving a pool on the Willow Way site is being overstated generally and particularly in the current consultation. A pool on this site is strictly speaking contrary to the UDP and a leisure use does not meet many of the criteria set out as mitigating reasons why non-employment uses would be considered. Pushing ahead this option could be problematic for the council. Legal guidance has already stated that residential would not be allowed on the Willow Way site and such an option has been removed from the consultation, however, it remains questionable whether a swimming pool would be suitable for the location.
As well as resulting in a loss of employment, moving the swimming pool from the Dartmouth Road site would also be contrary to regional policy intended to retain leisure uses in town centre locations. This location is not recognised as meeting most of the criteria for the location of a swimming pool – specifically it is outside a designated town centre and is not correctly located to provide the maximum level of access to swimming within a 20 minute walk from their homes. The location is within a 20 minute walk from the Crystal Palace pool, which means that half the catchment area is already served by another pool. This calls into question the long-term viability of this site for leisure use.
There is a similar planning problem when considering the loss of a pool and park from Dartmouth Road for conversion to residential. This will have a detrimental effect on the town centre and specifically on the library, which will no longer be adjacent to a leisure destination. This will again require a major change of use of the land, and with the density of housing proposed, close to existing housing and two grade 2 listed buildings, is likely to meet resistance from local residents.
We understand the financial problems that you have in providing the pool on the existing Dartmouth Road site but the Forest Hill Society have been working on a proposal for Live/Work development to cross-subsidise the pool on the existing pool site. The would comprise approximately 50% live/work units providing 25-30 jobs, and just under 50% residential units above the live/work units. We believe that this option will maximise the employment available on the site (greater than for the likely use of the site for pure employment as either B8, B1, or B2, or for the pool). However, we recognise that this does not fit with the 100% employment use that is outlined in the UDP and in the draft core strategy options produced in 2009, although it does achieve the objectives for flexible, creative employment accommodation.
The use of Willow Way as a mixed site for employment and residential is actually a very good use of this site that assists with the regeneration of the area, maximising employment (and possibly a small amount of residential use), whilst maintaining additional employment in leisure services at the existing pools site. It has to be done in the right way to create a viable live/work community, but the residential element will positively assist in this desire. We recommend that the council consider the Wilow Way site as a suitable site for mixed use development, allowing such a development in the south of the borough as well as a number proposed for the north of the borough. This is the best use for this site independent to any consideration of the pools location.
There should not be any significant problem in designating Willow Way as a mixed development in the Core Strategy and Spatial Strategy that are being produced and this would allow for the building of live/work units plus residential on Willow Way in the same timeframe as the alternative idea for housing on the existing pools site. The council should then be able to move forward with plans for the development of the new pool on the Dartmouth Road site, knowing that approximately £2m can be realised from the sale of the Willow Way site (our conservative estimates show a minimum of £1.5m land value based on 2009 property values).Unfortunately Willow Way cannot completely cross-subsidise the estimated cost of the pool if it does cost £12.5m, with a shortfall of £5m from the funds the council have earmarked for the Forest Hill pool. We believe that most of the remaining £3m shortfall can be addressed by the reduced cost of building over that last two years, and by careful consideration to reduce costs on the site.
The current plan for option 2 is to push ahead with building a pool on the Willow Way site prior to approval for building housing on the existing site. We believe that if this can be done for option 2, a similar process can be put in place for option 1, allowing for the building of the new pool on the existing site to commence in the same time frame.
This option, of pools on the current site and mixed use on Willow Way should result in less risk to the project as a whole, by a minor and justifiable change to the designation of Willow Way, rather than significant changes to the designation of both sites of proposed development. This will provide for swimming facilities at the earliest possible opportunity in a site favoured by residents, planning and leisure guidelines, and by council officers to whom we have spoken.
I look forward to your response on this proposition.
02 May 2009
General Meeting, Picnic, and the Pools
Thank you to everyone who’s been supporting our social events recently. There have been a lot of them and we know you can’t get to them all. There are still more events to come this month. We always like to see new faces so do take a look at what we’ve organised.
Most importantly, we have our General Meeting on 7th May at The Hob. This is a chance to discuss the major issues facing SE23 (I guess the Pools might crop up) and the way forward for the Forest Hill Society. If you’d like to become more actively involved in the Society’s work – in whatever capacity – do make yourself known to us at the meeting.
You should all have received a consultation form the Council asking for your views on the future of Forest Hill Pools. At the end of this email, we’ve included a message from Hilary, one of our representatives on the Stakeholder Group, explaining more about the Society’s position.
Monday 4th May - May Bank Holiday Revels on our own Millennium Green
The Forest Hill and Sydenham Societies are joining forces for the Bank Holiday on the 4th of May. We'll be celebrating spring with a day at a hidden green space on the border of Forest Hill and Sydenham - the Albion Millennium Green.
The Green, formerly a tennis club, was landscaped into an attractive, informal park at the turn of the century under a government scheme to develop 'Millennium Greens.’ Its entrance is at the end of Albion Villas Road (just off Sydenham Park Road), one of the prettiest streets in the area.
It's a haven for flowers and wildlife but it does need a little sprucing up. So we'll start the day with a group tidying up session and then savour the fruits of our labours with a picnic (please bring your own), games and traditional May Day activities for all the family.
So mark your diaries now. It'll be a great Bank Holiday day out - just around the corner.
Thursday 7th May - General Meeting. 7.30pm at The Hob pub opposite Forest Hill Station.
We’ll be upstairs and the bar will be open so there’ll be plenty of opportunity to socialise as well as take part in the more formal part of the evening. Doors open from 7pm. See you there.
Saturday 9th May – Dawn Chorus Walk, One Tree Hill - 5am
This is organised by the Friends of One Tree Hill. At this time of the year, the air is full of birdsong as each bird gets up in the morning. This annual, guided walk is an experience everyone should have at least once in their lives! So wrap up warmly and come and see how many different birds we can identify. Meet at 5 am at the gates to St. Augustine's Church, One Tree Hill, Honor Oak Park SE23. If you wish to find out more about the walk on their website
Saturday May 23 at 8pm – 23 Club
The Thai Orchard, 3 David’s Road SE23 3EP Phone 8291 3901. Please book directly with the restaurant making it clear you’re with the 23 Club or Forest Hill Society. We look forward to seeing you there.
FOREST HILL POOLS CONSULTATION STARTS
By now all of the households in Forest Hill, Perry Vale and Sydenham Wards should have received Lewisham Council’s latest questionnaire on the future of Forest Hill Pools.
This consultation is about whether people think that a pool is better in Dartmouth Road (with a bit of a wait) or Willow Way (which they think can be delivered sooner). It also asks questions about how often people use the pool and their age group etc.
If you have lost, recycled or someone else in your household has already filled in the printed questionnaire, then it is available to complete online.
The Society’s Forest Hill Pools Stakeholder Representatives are generally of the view that:
• A new pool should be built on the existing pools site as a way of helping regenerate the town centre and attract a wider range of shops and services; and
• That the pool should be delivered as soon as possible, and certainly much before the 2015 date that the Council set out in the questionnaire.
The Council says in the questionnaire that the Willow Way site can't be used to cross subsidise the pools on the Dartmouth Road site because housing is not going to be an acceptable use for this site, given its current designation as an employment site.
So this leaves us with a bit of a difficulty as neither of the options as they are presented in the questionnaire really meets the needs of Forest Hill. A number of the FHS Executive have been working to try and get the Council to reconsider the current options as they stand. The work that has been done indicates that it may be possible to redevelop Willow Way for live/work development or mixed uses including employment and that this development COULD then be used to cross subsidise a new swimming pool on the Dartmouth Road site. It may not meet the whole funding gap that has currently been identified but it may well go some way towards doing so. In that case, it may be possible to deliver a new pool on the current site much sooner than 2015.
We also think that if the responses to the questionnaire support the idea of a new pool on the current site then it may be possible to persuade the Mayor to reconsider the current options on the table and work to find a solution that delivers it sooner.
If anyone has any questions about the Pools project and the Council’s current consultation then please let us know. We are very keen that Forest Hill has a pool back soon and that it is in the best place for the majority of residents of this part of Lewisham and for the regeneration of our town centre.
Most importantly, we have our General Meeting on 7th May at The Hob. This is a chance to discuss the major issues facing SE23 (I guess the Pools might crop up) and the way forward for the Forest Hill Society. If you’d like to become more actively involved in the Society’s work – in whatever capacity – do make yourself known to us at the meeting.
You should all have received a consultation form the Council asking for your views on the future of Forest Hill Pools. At the end of this email, we’ve included a message from Hilary, one of our representatives on the Stakeholder Group, explaining more about the Society’s position.
Monday 4th May - May Bank Holiday Revels on our own Millennium Green
The Forest Hill and Sydenham Societies are joining forces for the Bank Holiday on the 4th of May. We'll be celebrating spring with a day at a hidden green space on the border of Forest Hill and Sydenham - the Albion Millennium Green.
The Green, formerly a tennis club, was landscaped into an attractive, informal park at the turn of the century under a government scheme to develop 'Millennium Greens.’ Its entrance is at the end of Albion Villas Road (just off Sydenham Park Road), one of the prettiest streets in the area.
It's a haven for flowers and wildlife but it does need a little sprucing up. So we'll start the day with a group tidying up session and then savour the fruits of our labours with a picnic (please bring your own), games and traditional May Day activities for all the family.
So mark your diaries now. It'll be a great Bank Holiday day out - just around the corner.
Thursday 7th May - General Meeting. 7.30pm at The Hob pub opposite Forest Hill Station.
We’ll be upstairs and the bar will be open so there’ll be plenty of opportunity to socialise as well as take part in the more formal part of the evening. Doors open from 7pm. See you there.
Saturday 9th May – Dawn Chorus Walk, One Tree Hill - 5am
This is organised by the Friends of One Tree Hill. At this time of the year, the air is full of birdsong as each bird gets up in the morning. This annual, guided walk is an experience everyone should have at least once in their lives! So wrap up warmly and come and see how many different birds we can identify. Meet at 5 am at the gates to St. Augustine's Church, One Tree Hill, Honor Oak Park SE23. If you wish to find out more about the walk on their website
Saturday May 23 at 8pm – 23 Club
The Thai Orchard, 3 David’s Road SE23 3EP Phone 8291 3901. Please book directly with the restaurant making it clear you’re with the 23 Club or Forest Hill Society. We look forward to seeing you there.
FOREST HILL POOLS CONSULTATION STARTS
By now all of the households in Forest Hill, Perry Vale and Sydenham Wards should have received Lewisham Council’s latest questionnaire on the future of Forest Hill Pools.
This consultation is about whether people think that a pool is better in Dartmouth Road (with a bit of a wait) or Willow Way (which they think can be delivered sooner). It also asks questions about how often people use the pool and their age group etc.
If you have lost, recycled or someone else in your household has already filled in the printed questionnaire, then it is available to complete online.
The Society’s Forest Hill Pools Stakeholder Representatives are generally of the view that:
• A new pool should be built on the existing pools site as a way of helping regenerate the town centre and attract a wider range of shops and services; and
• That the pool should be delivered as soon as possible, and certainly much before the 2015 date that the Council set out in the questionnaire.
The Council says in the questionnaire that the Willow Way site can't be used to cross subsidise the pools on the Dartmouth Road site because housing is not going to be an acceptable use for this site, given its current designation as an employment site.
So this leaves us with a bit of a difficulty as neither of the options as they are presented in the questionnaire really meets the needs of Forest Hill. A number of the FHS Executive have been working to try and get the Council to reconsider the current options as they stand. The work that has been done indicates that it may be possible to redevelop Willow Way for live/work development or mixed uses including employment and that this development COULD then be used to cross subsidise a new swimming pool on the Dartmouth Road site. It may not meet the whole funding gap that has currently been identified but it may well go some way towards doing so. In that case, it may be possible to deliver a new pool on the current site much sooner than 2015.
We also think that if the responses to the questionnaire support the idea of a new pool on the current site then it may be possible to persuade the Mayor to reconsider the current options on the table and work to find a solution that delivers it sooner.
If anyone has any questions about the Pools project and the Council’s current consultation then please let us know. We are very keen that Forest Hill has a pool back soon and that it is in the best place for the majority of residents of this part of Lewisham and for the regeneration of our town centre.
04 April 2009
21 March 2009
Forest Hill Society eNewsletter - 21st March
A busy week in Forest Hill with the 23 Club, the Ward Assembly, and a visit to possibly the last section of canal in Forest Hill!
'23 Club' at The Old Bank – This Monday, 23rd March, 8pm
This Italian restaurant is situated close to Honor Oak Park Station. Booking is not necessary for this evening but do look out for other SE23 Club members. The Old Bank, 76-78 Honor Oak Park, SE23 1DY, Phone 8291 1738
View Larger Map
Dacres Wood – Sunday, 29th March, 2pm (BST)
As British Summer Time begins (at last) join us for a fantastic opportunity to take a look round this site which is not normally accessible to the public. As well as interesting flora and fauna, you will see one of the last surviving parts of the Croydon Canal. The tour will be led by Alona Sheridan and the local historian, Steve Grindlay. Sturdy shoes and appropriate outdoor clothes are recommended.
Meet in the grassy area in front of the reserve gates, (junction of Silverdale and Dacres Road).
View Larger Map
Forest Hill Pools
Over the next few months the council will be consulting about the future of the Forest Hill swimming pool. At present they are proposing two options;
1. Move the pool to Willow Way SE26 in 2011 and sell off the existing site for housing, or
2. Put the project on hold until 2012 before looking again at Option 2 (new build on existing site, retain Victorian frontage, cross subsidise from Willow Way) with possible delivery in 2015.
The Forest Hill Society favour the development of Work/Live units on the Willow Way to help fund a pool development on the existing site, but want this to happen considerably sooner than 2015. A petition has been put together which supports 'Keeping Swimming in Forest Hill ' which you may wish to sign at http://keepswimming.notlong.
Forest Hill Ward Assembly - Wednesday 25th March, 7:30pm
The Forest Hill Ward Assembly is an opportunity for residents living in Forest Hill ward to discuss issues that effect the local area, including the pools which is one of the items on the agenda. Further details of the Assembly can be found on the council website.
Venue: Living Springs International Church, 8-10 Devonshire Road , London SE23 3TJ (see Google StreetView)04 March 2009
Forest Hill Ward Assembly
The 3rd Forest Hill Ward Assembly will be held on Wednesday 25th March at 7pm at the Living Springs International Church, 8-10 Devonshire Road (opposite the Hob), to discuss the £50,000 Mayor's Fund and the Forest Hill Pools.
The priorities for the Mayor's Fund are: Town Centre (empty shops), Youth Provision, Parking and Traffic Development, Lack of Community Facilities and Environmental Issues.
A local resident will be present to speak about the possibility of transforming Louise House into an Arts Centre and Theatre. This would also be a good opportunity for anyone wanting to put forward their views about the pools to speak to Councillors.
The priorities for the Mayor's Fund are: Town Centre (empty shops), Youth Provision, Parking and Traffic Development, Lack of Community Facilities and Environmental Issues.
A local resident will be present to speak about the possibility of transforming Louise House into an Arts Centre and Theatre. This would also be a good opportunity for anyone wanting to put forward their views about the pools to speak to Councillors.
27 February 2009
Lewisham Misses the Point on the Pools
At the Mayor and Cabinet meeting on the 25th February, the Mayor Sir Steve Bullock decided to go ahead with a further consultation on the options for Forest Hill Pools. The options that he has decided to consult on take a very narrow view of what it is possible to achieve, fail to look at the issue in the round and ignore the strong views of Forest Hill residents who both want to see swimming return to Forest Hill in the near future but also want to see a pool on the pools site.
The options that the Mayor has resolved to consult on are either to:
As you will be aware what the Forest Hill Society had been pushing for is an option that would meet the majority of residents and pools users requirements – and at the same time underpin the Dartmouth Road end of the Town Centre. This focussed on the designs for option 2 but sought to find a way to make it affordable and to deliver it now. To us the advantages of option 2 are clear, we believe it would be a way of uniting the various groups who all have different objectives for the project and developing something of which we could all be proud.
The view is that Option 2 would:
In fact at the Mayor and Cabinet meeting Steve Gough, the lead officer for the project said that the Option 2 Pools would be the simplest to deliver, if it could be funded.
The potential problem with funding this option relates back to the Willow Way site and the potential to redevelop it for a mix of residential and employment uses to cross subsidise the pools proposal. At the stakeholder meeting a couple of weeks ago the only barrier presented to achieving this was a planning issue related to the loss of employment on the site. Having looked into this further we believe that there are ways of making an argument for mixed uses on this site that could be in accordance with this policy, particularly as Lewisham are in the process of rewriting their Planning Policy framework at the moment. Key to this is the fact that under both of the options there would be no net loss of employment across the two sites. In fact option 2 might actually increase jobs if commercial and employment is provided on Willow Way alongside the housing, and it would also help support existing and new employment uses in the town centre. So we believe with the right argument this is possible and that therefore option 2 is affordable now, with less planning risk than option 3.
Another issue that has been raised by this process is that The Mayor and elements within the Council seem to believe that there is a silent majority out there that disagree with all of this and don’t care about the location of the pool, the town centre or housing on the pools site and who think the Forest Hill Society and other groups and residents are just being obstructive to swimming. We would really like to hear from a wider range of people as it would be really helpful to know if we are really being that unrepresentative, although we use a variety of methods to get opinions from across all aspects of Forest Hill residents - members and non-members. However, consulting on the 2 consultation options as currently set out will not tell us this as it is not based on fair and reasonable propositions about what may be possible and, as with last summer's consultation, is unlikely to give space for those who disagree with both options to contribute their opinions.
Whilst the consultation options as they appear to stand at the moment do force a difficult decision for residents it seems odd to set up a consultation whose result is going to alienate a large proportion of residents either way, particularly when better alternatives exist.
The one small piece of good news to come out of the meeting was that the Mayor stated that the stakeholder group should continue to be part of the pools project going forward and that a stakeholder meeting should be set up in the near future. This was in contrast to the draft of the officers report that appeared to say that they didn’t like the constituency of the current stakeholder group and that they should get rid of it and put together (a more agreeable) new one. How the Forest Hill Society form part of this group and what our role is going forward we are currently considering. However, we will continue to seek the best solution for the majority of residents and users of Forest Hill.
So the really strange thing about all of this is that the Council don’t seem to want to find a solution that could meet the requirements of the widest range of residents and swimmers, they want to press ahead with a scheme with significant disadvantages when considered in the round. In contrast to the view put across by the Mayor that this is a “choice between buildings or swimming”, there is another way, that could be delivered within the Council's £9.5m budget, that could be delivered soon, and that from the feedback we have had a great many people would support – they just don’t want to give any of us the opportunity to be consulted on it.
Please get in touch with us if you have views about these options or the pools project and particularly about the view the Forest Hill Society should take going forward.
The options that the Mayor has resolved to consult on are either to:
- Look again at the delivery of Option 2 in 2012 with possible delivery in 2015; or
- Deliver a pool on the Willow Way site in 2012 and to fund it through housing (up to 60 flats) on the existing pools site.
As you will be aware what the Forest Hill Society had been pushing for is an option that would meet the majority of residents and pools users requirements – and at the same time underpin the Dartmouth Road end of the Town Centre. This focussed on the designs for option 2 but sought to find a way to make it affordable and to deliver it now. To us the advantages of option 2 are clear, we believe it would be a way of uniting the various groups who all have different objectives for the project and developing something of which we could all be proud.
The view is that Option 2 would:
- Provide a high quality sensitive design that would minimise its impact on adjoining residents;
- Meet the requirements of the heritage lobby who want to keep the pools frontage and see them retained in public use;
- Meet the requirements of swimming groups and keen pools users who want a 2 pool swimming facility as soon as possible;
- Help reinforce the town centre and support local traders; and
- Provide the simplest route through Planning as it is sensitive to the adjacent listed buildings and the potential Conservation Area Extension.
In fact at the Mayor and Cabinet meeting Steve Gough, the lead officer for the project said that the Option 2 Pools would be the simplest to deliver, if it could be funded.
The potential problem with funding this option relates back to the Willow Way site and the potential to redevelop it for a mix of residential and employment uses to cross subsidise the pools proposal. At the stakeholder meeting a couple of weeks ago the only barrier presented to achieving this was a planning issue related to the loss of employment on the site. Having looked into this further we believe that there are ways of making an argument for mixed uses on this site that could be in accordance with this policy, particularly as Lewisham are in the process of rewriting their Planning Policy framework at the moment. Key to this is the fact that under both of the options there would be no net loss of employment across the two sites. In fact option 2 might actually increase jobs if commercial and employment is provided on Willow Way alongside the housing, and it would also help support existing and new employment uses in the town centre. So we believe with the right argument this is possible and that therefore option 2 is affordable now, with less planning risk than option 3.
Another issue that has been raised by this process is that The Mayor and elements within the Council seem to believe that there is a silent majority out there that disagree with all of this and don’t care about the location of the pool, the town centre or housing on the pools site and who think the Forest Hill Society and other groups and residents are just being obstructive to swimming. We would really like to hear from a wider range of people as it would be really helpful to know if we are really being that unrepresentative, although we use a variety of methods to get opinions from across all aspects of Forest Hill residents - members and non-members. However, consulting on the 2 consultation options as currently set out will not tell us this as it is not based on fair and reasonable propositions about what may be possible and, as with last summer's consultation, is unlikely to give space for those who disagree with both options to contribute their opinions.
Whilst the consultation options as they appear to stand at the moment do force a difficult decision for residents it seems odd to set up a consultation whose result is going to alienate a large proportion of residents either way, particularly when better alternatives exist.
The one small piece of good news to come out of the meeting was that the Mayor stated that the stakeholder group should continue to be part of the pools project going forward and that a stakeholder meeting should be set up in the near future. This was in contrast to the draft of the officers report that appeared to say that they didn’t like the constituency of the current stakeholder group and that they should get rid of it and put together (a more agreeable) new one. How the Forest Hill Society form part of this group and what our role is going forward we are currently considering. However, we will continue to seek the best solution for the majority of residents and users of Forest Hill.
So the really strange thing about all of this is that the Council don’t seem to want to find a solution that could meet the requirements of the widest range of residents and swimmers, they want to press ahead with a scheme with significant disadvantages when considered in the round. In contrast to the view put across by the Mayor that this is a “choice between buildings or swimming”, there is another way, that could be delivered within the Council's £9.5m budget, that could be delivered soon, and that from the feedback we have had a great many people would support – they just don’t want to give any of us the opportunity to be consulted on it.
Please get in touch with us if you have views about these options or the pools project and particularly about the view the Forest Hill Society should take going forward.
Speech to Mayor and Cabinet
Below is the text of the speech made to Mayor and Cabinet meeting on Wednesday by Hilary Satchwell on behalf of the Forest Hill Society:
1) I’m speaking as a representative of the Forest Hill Society, and with the backing of the Tewkesbury Lodge Estate Residents’ Association, the Sydenham Society and Save the Face of Forest Hill Pools. I’m happy that we’ve been able to find a common view on the latest proposals from the Council.
2) Thank you for a report that provides some new ideas. We are really glad you have restated that you want a pool in Forest Hill – we REALLY want one too! We want a pool IN Forest Hill. Forest Hill Town Centre feels as if it is dying as a result of the closure of the pool three years ago. The report says that Option 3 could give us a pool sooner, but we would lose of one of the town centre’s key ‘anchors’ as identified in the 2003 Urban Development Framework. We have to find a way around this problem. Rushing ahead with newly conceived option three cannot be right. If you consult with such a strong preference for Option three without fully exploring the alternatives we fear there will be another fiasco.
3) We very strongly support option 2, but not as a pipe-dream for 2015. We must work together to find a way of delivering this now. Option 2 has many benefits, including good design, retention of ‘civic’ use and the pools frontage. It would revitalise the town centre and protect employment. It has minimal impact on neighbours. Our online survey and other feedback shows that it is supported by the overwhelming majority of residents. We believe that this option not only has the support of the majority of Forest Hill residents but also Council Members and Officers. It has the support of the swimming lobby and the Heritage lobby. We can’t shelve this option for three years. Nobody can accept that a solution that was first presented to the stakeholders just 3 weeks ago can’t be delivered before 2015.
The location of the pools is really important. Willow Way is 600 metres further from the centre of Forest Hill and is in Sydenham. Its catchment area overlaps The Bridge and Crystal Palace but is further from Honor Oak, Perry Vale and East Dulwich, which have no modern swimming facilities. Less people in Lewisham would be within a kilometre of a swimming pool if you move the site to Willow Way. We are concerned that a pool in Willow Way would be hidden in a back street and further from a wide range of public transport. This location will not attract custom or support long term viability. Lewisham’s leisure strategy and national guidelines recognise the importance of town centre locations for the provision of leisure and we are lucky to have a great site on Dartmouth Road!
4) We understand the constraints of planning policy and the important principle of not losing employment land from the Borough. As presented, option 2 and option 3 create exactly the same number of jobs from the pools. There would be NO NET loss of employment under option 2, and possibly an increase, if Willow Way included live work, or commercial and residential uses. On the other hand, option 3 would seriously threaten jobs in the town centre as a result of relocation of the pool. This cannot be the intention – it does not make sense to quote planning policy against Option 2 when it would actually increase employment opportunities within the borough. The issue needs further consideration and thought so that Willow Way can be used to cross subsidise the proposals.
5) We are concerned that the planning constraints of option 3 on Willow Way have been understated. Gaining planning approval for a significant leisure use outside of a defined town centre is contrary to both Lewisham Council Policy and national planning policy statement 6 on Town Centres. At the same time, putting high density housing on the Pools site would materially affect the setting of 2 listed buildings. We haven’t had the privilege of seeing the planning advice received on the proposals but know that Planning isn’t usually such a black and white issue as has been presented.
6) We are also concerned that the problems of delivering housing on the Pools site have been grossly understated. Delivering 60 flats on an existing leisure site in the current economic downturn and against public opposition will be difficult. It must be easier to construct a robust and sensible argument for the delivery of a mixed use development on Willow Way and a New Pool on an existing leisure site in the Town Centre. Option 2 only requires an increased range of uses on one site whilst option 3 needs a change of use on both. Some employment on Willow Way and a new leisure facility on Dartmouth Road will regenerate the Town Centre. The benefits significantly outweigh the case for leisure employment only on Willow Way, more empty shops on Dartmouth Road and high risk, high density housing.
7) Option 3, as the only recommendation to be delivered in the short term in this report, is the wrong one. Issues are not being considered in the round and it is not yet quite the right time for another consultation. Both Option 2 in 2015 and option 3 in 2011 would kill the town centre at a time of great opportunity with the coming of the East London Line. Pursuing Option 3 raises significant issues including, without being melodramatic, the future of Forest Hill as a Town Centre.
8) When it is right time to consult please make sure that the consultation asks open, informative and useful questions. The answers will then be useful if something unforeseen happens. We need a consultation that provides useful information about what people want from the pools project, in addition to a response on specific options, if that is what you think you need. We don’t need a tick box form for the 2 ‘closed’ options. We want a much more participatory approach involving stakeholders and residents. We don’t need another closed consultation with stakeholders kept in the dark. Let’s work together on this to deliver a first class leisure facility on the Pools site as soon as we can.
9) We understand that there is a proposal being developed for an arts centre in Louise House and would like your support for it, at the very least by financially supporting a feasibility study. We need the creative and youth oriented activities in Forest Hill that this proposal could bring.
10) Please consider what the Community has said and find a way to make option 2 a reality in the short term. This is what the Community wants and this is what your Officers recognise is the best option. Waiting until 2012 to revisit the options is not acceptable. We have already waited three years.
Thank you.
1) I’m speaking as a representative of the Forest Hill Society, and with the backing of the Tewkesbury Lodge Estate Residents’ Association, the Sydenham Society and Save the Face of Forest Hill Pools. I’m happy that we’ve been able to find a common view on the latest proposals from the Council.
2) Thank you for a report that provides some new ideas. We are really glad you have restated that you want a pool in Forest Hill – we REALLY want one too! We want a pool IN Forest Hill. Forest Hill Town Centre feels as if it is dying as a result of the closure of the pool three years ago. The report says that Option 3 could give us a pool sooner, but we would lose of one of the town centre’s key ‘anchors’ as identified in the 2003 Urban Development Framework. We have to find a way around this problem. Rushing ahead with newly conceived option three cannot be right. If you consult with such a strong preference for Option three without fully exploring the alternatives we fear there will be another fiasco.
3) We very strongly support option 2, but not as a pipe-dream for 2015. We must work together to find a way of delivering this now. Option 2 has many benefits, including good design, retention of ‘civic’ use and the pools frontage. It would revitalise the town centre and protect employment. It has minimal impact on neighbours. Our online survey and other feedback shows that it is supported by the overwhelming majority of residents. We believe that this option not only has the support of the majority of Forest Hill residents but also Council Members and Officers. It has the support of the swimming lobby and the Heritage lobby. We can’t shelve this option for three years. Nobody can accept that a solution that was first presented to the stakeholders just 3 weeks ago can’t be delivered before 2015.
The location of the pools is really important. Willow Way is 600 metres further from the centre of Forest Hill and is in Sydenham. Its catchment area overlaps The Bridge and Crystal Palace but is further from Honor Oak, Perry Vale and East Dulwich, which have no modern swimming facilities. Less people in Lewisham would be within a kilometre of a swimming pool if you move the site to Willow Way. We are concerned that a pool in Willow Way would be hidden in a back street and further from a wide range of public transport. This location will not attract custom or support long term viability. Lewisham’s leisure strategy and national guidelines recognise the importance of town centre locations for the provision of leisure and we are lucky to have a great site on Dartmouth Road!
4) We understand the constraints of planning policy and the important principle of not losing employment land from the Borough. As presented, option 2 and option 3 create exactly the same number of jobs from the pools. There would be NO NET loss of employment under option 2, and possibly an increase, if Willow Way included live work, or commercial and residential uses. On the other hand, option 3 would seriously threaten jobs in the town centre as a result of relocation of the pool. This cannot be the intention – it does not make sense to quote planning policy against Option 2 when it would actually increase employment opportunities within the borough. The issue needs further consideration and thought so that Willow Way can be used to cross subsidise the proposals.
5) We are concerned that the planning constraints of option 3 on Willow Way have been understated. Gaining planning approval for a significant leisure use outside of a defined town centre is contrary to both Lewisham Council Policy and national planning policy statement 6 on Town Centres. At the same time, putting high density housing on the Pools site would materially affect the setting of 2 listed buildings. We haven’t had the privilege of seeing the planning advice received on the proposals but know that Planning isn’t usually such a black and white issue as has been presented.
6) We are also concerned that the problems of delivering housing on the Pools site have been grossly understated. Delivering 60 flats on an existing leisure site in the current economic downturn and against public opposition will be difficult. It must be easier to construct a robust and sensible argument for the delivery of a mixed use development on Willow Way and a New Pool on an existing leisure site in the Town Centre. Option 2 only requires an increased range of uses on one site whilst option 3 needs a change of use on both. Some employment on Willow Way and a new leisure facility on Dartmouth Road will regenerate the Town Centre. The benefits significantly outweigh the case for leisure employment only on Willow Way, more empty shops on Dartmouth Road and high risk, high density housing.
7) Option 3, as the only recommendation to be delivered in the short term in this report, is the wrong one. Issues are not being considered in the round and it is not yet quite the right time for another consultation. Both Option 2 in 2015 and option 3 in 2011 would kill the town centre at a time of great opportunity with the coming of the East London Line. Pursuing Option 3 raises significant issues including, without being melodramatic, the future of Forest Hill as a Town Centre.
8) When it is right time to consult please make sure that the consultation asks open, informative and useful questions. The answers will then be useful if something unforeseen happens. We need a consultation that provides useful information about what people want from the pools project, in addition to a response on specific options, if that is what you think you need. We don’t need a tick box form for the 2 ‘closed’ options. We want a much more participatory approach involving stakeholders and residents. We don’t need another closed consultation with stakeholders kept in the dark. Let’s work together on this to deliver a first class leisure facility on the Pools site as soon as we can.
9) We understand that there is a proposal being developed for an arts centre in Louise House and would like your support for it, at the very least by financially supporting a feasibility study. We need the creative and youth oriented activities in Forest Hill that this proposal could bring.
10) Please consider what the Community has said and find a way to make option 2 a reality in the short term. This is what the Community wants and this is what your Officers recognise is the best option. Waiting until 2012 to revisit the options is not acceptable. We have already waited three years.
Thank you.
11 February 2009
Forest Hill Society to back Option 2
The Forest Hill Society Executive met last night to consider their position on the pools options presented to stakeholders last week.
There was a very strong preference for option 2 which maximises the leisure offered and keeps swimming in the current location in Forest Hill. We are pleased that this plan includes the retention of the pools frontage and believe that it will benefit both Forest Hill town centre and the Kirkdale area where new housing could be built. We recognise that there will be some difficulty in building housing in the Willow Way site, but believe that a solution must be found to move forward with option 2.
Option 3 was particularly disliked as providing a pool in the wrong location, in a back road close to a commercial zone where large van use a narrow road. It is outside Forest Hill town centre, leaving the library isolated in a residential area and having a detrimental effect on retail on Dartmouth Road. The Willow Way site is also significantly further from train stations and main town centres leading to an increased use of cars to travel to the pool, where car parking in not readily available.
These views are supported by local residents who in a poll on SE23.com back option 2 by 75% to 20% for option 1, and less than 5% for option 3 (based on a total of 70 responses over 3 days).
The mayor and cabinet will be considering the options on 25th February. This meeting, at Lewisham Town Hall, is open to the public to observe and we hope that local people will show their support for swimming in Forest Hill and for option 2 by attending the meeting.
Update: The full response by the Forest Hill Society can be read here.
There was a very strong preference for option 2 which maximises the leisure offered and keeps swimming in the current location in Forest Hill. We are pleased that this plan includes the retention of the pools frontage and believe that it will benefit both Forest Hill town centre and the Kirkdale area where new housing could be built. We recognise that there will be some difficulty in building housing in the Willow Way site, but believe that a solution must be found to move forward with option 2.
Option 3 was particularly disliked as providing a pool in the wrong location, in a back road close to a commercial zone where large van use a narrow road. It is outside Forest Hill town centre, leaving the library isolated in a residential area and having a detrimental effect on retail on Dartmouth Road. The Willow Way site is also significantly further from train stations and main town centres leading to an increased use of cars to travel to the pool, where car parking in not readily available.
These views are supported by local residents who in a poll on SE23.com back option 2 by 75% to 20% for option 1, and less than 5% for option 3 (based on a total of 70 responses over 3 days).
The mayor and cabinet will be considering the options on 25th February. This meeting, at Lewisham Town Hall, is open to the public to observe and we hope that local people will show their support for swimming in Forest Hill and for option 2 by attending the meeting.
Update: The full response by the Forest Hill Society can be read here.
06 February 2009
2009 Options for Forest Hill Pool
Over the last five months Lewisham Council have been working on a feasibility study for the possible options for the current site of Forest Hill Pools.Details of the three options can be viewed at http://www2.lewisham.gov.uk/lbl/documents/stakeholder_briefing_050209.pdf
We would be very interested to hear your views in the comments section or via email: email@foresthillsociety.com
Picture is of just one of the possible options to be presented to Mayor and Cabinet on 25 February.
21 January 2009
Forest Hill Pools Stakeholders Update 21st January 2009
This isn't much of an update because the Council is keeping us pretty much in the dark about what's going on and trying to get information is proving very frustrating. But we wanted to let our members know what we have managed to glean.
In October the Council commissioned further feasibility work to examine how a two-pool leisure centre could be delivered for Forest Hill, taking into account the results of public consultation and the listing of Louise House. This further work was to include examination of how Louise House and possibly the old pool building frontage could be incorporated into a new scheme. It would also assess the potential for other community uses, the scope for housing cross subsidy, the timetable, and the revised costs and risks for the project. At that stage, a stakeholder meeting was planned for 22nd January 2009.
The Forest Hill Society, along with the Sydenham Society and Save the Face of Forest Hill were not happy with the previous consultation process. We felt that there had been no opportunity for a two-way discussion.
As the autumn progressed, it became evident that the brief for the feasibility study was regarded as confidential. It seemed to us that excluding the community from the process of developing a brief was part of the reason that the plans presented in the summer were derailed so spectacularly. We approached local Councillors and officers for a meeting to discuss ideas we have for an innovative consultation event to draw up a brief which would then inform a design competition, as had been done elsewhere. This would provide real options for local stakeholders to consider, and does not have to be an expensive process. We had great difficulty in getting a meeting, but eventually it took place on the 8th January 2009.
There was some initial disagreement about the purpose of the meeting, as the Council officers felt that they had been directed to hold the consultation in a particular way, and only really wanted to look at the sketch plans which a local architect had shared with the societies. These demonstrate that even with the retention of Louise House and the Pools frontage building, there is space on the site for two pools, changing and other facilities, along with some housing. It would still require demolition of the laundry block at the back of Louise House in order to have plant and chemicals access. This is not out of the question because even when a building is listed it can still be possible to change or demolish parts of the building, as long as a strong and comprehensive case is put forward for it - in this case focussed around the positive reuse and repair of the building for a community use.
It was eventually agreed that the Forest Hill Society, Sydenham Society, Save the Face of Forest Hill and any other stakeholders would be able to table items for the agenda at the next stakeholder meeting. Thus we will have a forum to bring up our ideas about the consultation process. However, the Council officers are not prepared to have a stakeholder meeting until the feasibility study has been completed, and this will not be by the 22nd January date previously agreed but has be delayed to 5th Febuary. Yet again, the timetable slips.
If you have any ideas about how Louise House could be used, please email the Forest Hill Society representatives on the Stakeholder group:
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